Bible Quest Podcast
Discussing the events of today and tomorrow through a Biblical lens.
Bible Quest Podcast
Episode 130 - Spiritual Maturity and Forgiveness - With Pastor Buddy
Spiritual maturity isn't about checking religious boxes but growing in relationship with Jesus and understanding how the entire Bible points to Him. We discuss how faith becomes not just something we participate in, but something we become part of in our daily lives.
• Defining spiritual maturity as growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus
• Exploring the dangers of treating faith like a checklist rather than a relationship
• Addressing seasons of spiritual dryness and how to respond
• Understanding the Holy Spirit's role in conviction and growth
• Examining forgiveness as a crucial element of spiritual maturity
• Recognizing that spiritual growth is personal, not competitive
• Emphasizing unity among believers despite denominational differences
• Acknowledging that spiritual growth is a lifelong journey
Join us for our next episode as we continue exploring different aspects of spiritual maturity with Pastor Buddy.
Hi everyone and welcome to the BibleQuest podcast. My name is Bruce and with me today a special guest, pastor Buddy. Hello, honored to be here. So what I wanted to do with this podcast is I wanted to do a few podcasts on spiritual maturity and that's why I asked would you mind?
Speaker 2:coming on and doing this.
Speaker 1:Because you're coming from a pastoral background, also from a chaplaincy background, so you've got more than me. I'm more of a layperson than this. But you know, you've obviously been to seminary. I have, and I've been to seminary and one of the things I remember them talking about was like just different classes or things for spiritual maturity. So I wanted to do kind of a section, maybe a couple podcasts, with you just talking about different pieces of this. Because it's not just one thing no, no, it's a lot, Honestly it is.
Speaker 2:It is, but it's simple at the same time, true. So yeah, I'm excited.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I have a good definition of spiritual maturity. I guess mine is just learning more about your faith. Yeah, yeah, you know it's kind of like. My basic definition is like digging into the and to be specific christian faith. Our faith is is there's so much to it I mean, sometimes from a medical perspective people specialize like pediatrics, geriatrics so you can spend. The bible is kind of the same way there's so it's so deep, it is you can get into just creation, you can get into end time. You can do yeah apologetics or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely yeah, but it's hard to me. It's like, yeah, it's good to to get into like a aspect of it, but you kind of the more you know, the better off you are. You are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think I'm the type of person where I want to know a lot about a little bit of everything, if you will, so I can engage and have conversations. I'm an expert in nothing, but I just love a little bit of all of it and just try to wrap it all together.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, so like do you have a definition, though I do, or what does that mean to you? Somebody has spiritual maturity.
Speaker 2:For me, spiritual maturity is just growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus and being able to identify how the old Testament points towards Jesus and how the new points back at him, and I think they're all so connected when you dive right down and get into it. There's just. There's so much. It's all about Jesus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is, it really is. You know, Paul, and I know, and you probably remember the epistle more than I will, but I remember one of Paul's epistle. He was kind of chiding them a little bit to say, like you know, you should be like in the meat of the word. You know what I mean. Like at this point, you shouldn't be still needing milk, right? And I think sometimes, as Christians, it's really easy to just well, I just, you know, I go to church on Sunday and that's where I learn.
Speaker 2:It is. If we're not careful, we can get into this pattern of you're just checking a box. Yes, I said my prayer day before meal check. I went to church. Sunday check I got another one, and we have to understand that it's not about something we participate in, it's something that we become a part of and it's all day, every day.
Speaker 1:It needs to be a part of it. It does, absolutely. I won't put you on the spot. No, go ahead. I was going to say I know there's times when I don't feel close. I absolutely took me as well, you know because and I was like you know, you know what how you feel close to him. Why aren't you doing this Right? You know, and I feel like I know there's been people have been Christians a lot longer than I have, and people that are more mature than I am, but I still feel like there's times that I'm a babe needing milk.
Speaker 2:I agree.
Speaker 1:I agree. I just think it's something we it's a constant, it is. It's a constant thing to learn and grow and one thing I've learned.
Speaker 2:You know you mentioned that spiritual dryness, and I talk about that quite often because I think that's something we all experience the emotional highs and I don't want to say just emotional, but the highs where you feel like Jesus is driving the car and you're in the backseat.
Speaker 2:I think that's amazing, but I also know my emotions, coming back to that word, dictate sometimes where that is. For instance, have you ever been driving along and you're praising God? Somebody cuts you off Next thing. You know what are you doing? Something not very Christian, like right, let's just be real, and and and. So Our emotions play such a part of that. But the constant that I believe we all have to get into is, like David said in the 23rd Psalm, in the valley of the shadow of death, he's right there with us, no matter what it is, and he is.
Speaker 1:And he knows, loves us. We're going to have Absolutely those times when we're, yes, not saying nice things about the person that cut us off.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly, or we're running late and we're right. And it's not just that, necessarily. I mean I have been dug into the word and I I just don't feel it and I'm like god, where'd you go?
Speaker 1:and I know I've had to self-examine myself and you know it's funny you say that because I think that's uh, that's something we say. It's like god, where did you go? And I, it was just the other days. And I'm like Lord, you're there, I know you are, it's me. Yes, that went Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Took a turn because that's what we do, right, yeah, and I know for me personally, when I go through those times of spiritual dryness, I reflect on my own life, I pray God, show me, as King David did point out, any me that may offend thee. I'm the same way, because I think that can be a barrier to filling that presence of God is if there is unconfessed sin in our lives, and something that I always try to check for and there's lots of sin in my life, don't get me wrong, but I do my best not to.
Speaker 1:But you know, I think that's a I don't know if this is this is probably still on the topic of spiritual maturity, because people listening to this you have to like. You will learn and grow, yep, throughout your life and you will learn that it's impossible for us not to sin Exactly we are Every single one of us. But the unbelievers will say like well, you guys are no better than everybody else we're hypocrites. Because you're not being sin free. But what does Paul say?
Speaker 2:in the book of Romans. All have fallen short of God's glorious standard, every single one of us. But through the grace of Jesus and his death on the cross and his resurrection, I mean, are we, as the Bible says, co-heirs with him, and that's by, that is the only way that we are um any way remotely being able to do that. But to your point, from the outside, looking in, they expect perfection. Oh yeah and it was only jesus that was perfect. Right, we're gonna happen.
Speaker 1:No, never, not never. But I think the way you know, one of the ways you know as you're saved, is the holy spirit's there, that conviction telling you absolutely that was wrong. Yep, you know in a nice way. Yes, conviction you of, like that's when you get that what did I do that for? Absolutely yes, yes man, I can't believe I did that yes, every time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't. Personally, I think, if we are not dialed into that and again it comes right back to spiritual maturity we can be like king david look what king david and uriah the hittite with bathsheba I mean, it took him sending a prophet to him and using a parable, if you will, to point out this little sheep and and david was like finally, like oh yeah, that's, that's me, yeah so, yeah, and I, you just said something about that, about the Holy Spirit, and I think we can harden ourselves to not hear Absolutely, that's right.
Speaker 1:That's right into a little bit of like, how do you, how well, how do you get more spiritually mature? Um, but, honestly, like when you are reading the bible and you're spending time with god in your prayer, you know you have a prayer life. I mean, one of the classes I think I I remember the name of it was in seminary that I still remember was it was called spiritual disciplines, yes, and it was about you know worship, having time to worship, having making the time to pray making the time to read, that's right, and it's just spending more time with him.
Speaker 1:And then we, we, you have to grow doing that, we have to, we have to.
Speaker 2:And you said it perfectly, bruce we have to make time for this. Our lives are full of cell phones and appointments and calendars and everything in between Work Right. We have to make time to follow Jesus we really do, and that is reading, studying and applying God's word to our lives.
Speaker 1:You know, if you just did that alone made the time you'll grow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and it doesn't have to be like two, three, four hours a day. I mean, what a difference 15 minutes will make in prayer and reading and just saying God, point out anything in me that needs to go away.
Speaker 1:And I was just thinking you know, 15 minutes a day reading the Bible, you'll probably get through it, the whole thing in a year, pretty quick. It doesn't take long, it really doesn't, no, it doesn't. So you mentioned something back wow, and, and then and again, putting you on the spot, you, in your sermon, you were talking about forgiveness, how important that is, and you mentioned something and I and all I have on my notes was spiritual maturity, forgiveness. I was like I wonder what I meant with that. No, so, but I guess that, like, if you can't forgive somebody, you know that also kind of shows how mature you are in your faith too. I don't know if that's what you're getting at.
Speaker 2:That's exactly what I was getting at, because if we don't realize just how blessed we are, let me look at myself, my own sin life. I look at the life I live and I try my best every day to do better than I did the day before, knowing that through the grace and mercy of Jesus I'm able to get through the next one. We've talked about this. Every Sunday or Wednesday, when I get up, who am I to talk to anybody about the Lord? However, again, we go to the cross and look what Jesus did for us.
Speaker 2:It took me a long time to figure out that forgiving someone else is not. It's not for them, it's for us and it's because when we don't forgive and we are or we do harden our hearts towards that person, it creates, if you will, a blockage between you and God. I mean, personally, I don't believe we would go to hell in that state, but it can lead to other things, and that is where I think you get into having to be careful about your eternity, because if you have unforgiveness in your heart and it leads to anger and it leads to all these other things where you can't walk away from it, yeah.
Speaker 2:What's our fruit look?
Speaker 1:like yeah, and when that festers, yes. It usually doesn't get better, no the more people sit and stew on anger or Absolutely Anything like that, yeah, yeah, and then forgiveness is it's. I mean, it's a big thing.
Speaker 2:It is, and I think it's something we all can relate to, because you don't have to live very long for someone to do something to offend you and right, and then it's our choice as to whether or not we do that. Yeah, and have you ever been mad at somebody? And they don't even know you're mad at them. Yeah, and it's they don't know.
Speaker 1:It makes you more mad that they don't know that you're mad's right yes, yes, and it's just, it's crazy, but you know. But you know this goes so against. Uh, just this subject alone goes so against, like the world today where it's okay to be like offended and everybody's offended at something and and to tell them like, forget that you. You know that's hard for for people, I mean. I think it was hard years ago, absolutely, and I think it's still hard today.
Speaker 2:Well, because I know in the flesh it's easy to not see the things that we do wrong, not think we've done anything wrong, and sometimes we haven't done anything wrong. Let's just be honest. However, when someone offends us, what we do with that is completely up to us. I mean, when you go back to Peter and he said, well, okay, jesus, how many times do we need to forgive him? Seven times, he's like no, seven times, 70, 490 times, right, and I think- I think you're counting those off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that that's what I'm getting at sometimes we get the text, the text sheet out, and we're waiting for number 491.
Speaker 1:We're gonna let him have it, but we both know the gist of that was jesus is just saying keep forgiving but you know what, when, when I hear that and and a lot of yeah, never mind I was and and a lot of yeah, nevermind I was just talking a lot, a lot of what, when I was going through, somebody was like well, what's the application, the life application? I know that was how big it is now. But, um, um, I look at that also and I say you know what, that's the way God looks at things too. Absolutely, it's not that we forgive forever.
Speaker 2:Yep, he does too. He does, you know. The Bible tells us that as far as the East is to the West, he doesn't have a tick sheet.
Speaker 1:He doesn't, he doesn't. He's like one more time. That's right, you're out.
Speaker 2:Exactly. He's not doing that, but how many times do people or have people been taught or showed that throughout their faith journey?
Speaker 1:if you will, yeah, and sometimes You're going to lose your salvation Exactly.
Speaker 2:And we can't. I mean, the Bible tells us specifically that we are secure in his hand and can go nowhere. Now I also believe that we can walk away from it.
Speaker 1:I do believe that that's my point too, that's my thought of I think we can renounce our salvation and walk away, and it's on us, it's not Jesus or God that pushed us out. So I believe that's the case as well.
Speaker 2:And I think that gets mixed into the one saved, always save, and it just becomes this big theological. I don't think that's what people really mean by that. You know, I just think it's a play on words.
Speaker 1:And as you're not getting older, but I'm getting older. And when Paul was saying, like you know, I finished the race, he like finished strong. Yeah, and it's just like you know, as we get older, there's a lot in the world that weighs on us. There is, and it can be easy, I can see, for people to give up their faith and just like walk away at the end and it's like man, how how sad is that it is.
Speaker 2:I think it goes back to the check in boxes thing. They're looking at it from a perspective. Of this is something I participate in instead of this is something who I've become.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Because it's it's about that relationship. It is. And if it's something you're just and again this comes back to him as spiritual maturity does when you, when you, when you know your faith more you know, more than me than this, more than I know you come to realize that it's like it is that relationship and it becomes who you are, not just the checking the boxes, because then you realize that doesn't really mean anything. When you check a box and I do show up on Sunday, I give money, I bring my food to potluck, yeah, you know, exactly, exactly. But that's not, you know. Back in the old testament, god said I don't, you know, he doesn't want the sacrifices and the blood of goats and lambs and exactly that was just a temporary thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's not, that's not all of it, that's not the whole thing. No, it's not. But we make it about that and I think that's what's been modeled to us in a lot of ways and I think a lot of good uh, moms, dads, aunts, uncles, grandmas and grandpas are out there and they're they're doing their best to uh pour into us a foundation, if you will, and and I think they're just pouring in what they've been taught. And so I think through the years it's went from this relationship where it's all about growing, and again going back to my definition of growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus. You have to go to church to check that box, you have to say that prayer to check that box. To your point, bring the food to potluck to check that box. That's what makes me a good Christian and it's like no, yeah, it's hard and sadly.
Speaker 1:there's churches out there. There is.
Speaker 2:There is, they take and they're very progressive. Yes, and it's not even about.
Speaker 1:Jesus, no, no, it's about being. I don't know what it's relativism. It is what's right for me.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly. Or the pastor what his viewpoints are. Yeah, and you fit in his box if you will. And if you don't fit that box, well then you can't be a part of our church.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which is. But you know, the Bible says in the end times people will be teaching.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You know says in the end times, people will be teaching.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know, people will want to have people teaching things that they want to know, itching ears to right, right, you know. And and again, I think it goes back to the spiritual maturity play, in that we have to grow. It's not my job, as not even a pastor, but as another christ follower, to tell someone oh, you shouldn't listen to that or you shouldn't you, you know, be careful. No, you need to grow because the Lord will show us that when you're hearing something that doesn't line up with scripture on Facebook or reels or whatever it is, tick, talk, um. But you've got to do your part, you've got to take the time to know God's word and not just wait for me or somebody else to explain it to you.
Speaker 1:You're telling me, in a couple of Sundays you're going to teach me the whole Bible. No, not at all, not at all that's right.
Speaker 2:It's like I say on Sundays, when you go to church and you hear a sermon, that's the huddle. It's the equivalent of the huddle of a football team and you're putting together the gameplay. The action starts when you go outside the doors, because that's where the game is if you will.
Speaker 1:It's. It's inside the walls too, but yet it's it's out. There is where you apply what you want. Yeah, yeah, this is, for the most part, the safe space.
Speaker 2:It is it should be it should be it should. We can do church hurt. That's a whole another podcast, let me tell you all right.
Speaker 1:So probably we didn't get into a whole lot of like do this, do this, do this and this one and this one was probably not going to be that way, but hopefully, listening to this, you can see that spiritual maturity isn't just one thing. No, and there's a lot to it, but it's really not that hard. It's growing in your faith. Yeah, and there's a whole lot to that. There is Absolutely there's a ton to that and this is a lifelong endeavor.
Speaker 2:It is, and I know we'll always learn, and that's the amazing thing. That's why the Bible is the living word of God. Yeah, it always applies to us and we'll always learn something.
Speaker 1:And if you know somebody who says they know the Bible, I would be a little wary, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I agree. I mean, I know parts of the Bible, but I don't know the whole thing. I'm still learning it and I've been reading it since I was 14 years old.
Speaker 1:There's a lot to it, but again, it's nothing hard and it's not a race. No, and you're not in competition with somebody. Exactly, you know by down the street's been doing it 10 more years than me, so I'm not up. Yeah, there you go, but you don't know where other people's and it really doesn't matter where somebody else is.
Speaker 2:No, Because, again, it's between us and the Lord. It's this.
Speaker 1:You know, when we say that like everybody's going to have a different relationship to they are, are you know? You've had things in your life and I've had things in my life and god's helped me with this and nothing that. You know what I mean. It's oh sure, it's all that stuff it is, and so it's going to be different for everybody listening to your relationship, but it all connects.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's the cool thing about it, it all connects and you know we're all related to, we are, we are, and I think, as christians, we need to think of things that way too. It's like, like you know what? This is my brother, this is my sister. Absolutely, it's the way it was, I think, intended to be.
Speaker 2:I think you're right, that's the Baptists and this is the Catholics. That stuff drives me crazy, I tell people, all the time, I really do. I tell people all the time I don't care what sign is hung on the door. As long as they follow God's word and Jesus Christ is their savior, it doesn't matter. Yeah, we're all brothers. Yeah, we are, we are. Everything else is just icing on the cake.
Speaker 1:That's right, all right, so probably for this podcast, we're going to stop it here.
Speaker 2:I'm going to ask Pastor Buddy, very nicely if he'll come back and talk to me again about another subject on spiritual maturity.
Speaker 1:So for this one, I'd be honored. No-transcript.